with Robert R. Janes
An interview by Diana Fehr / November 2024
Robert R. Janes is an independent scholar-practitioner, Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of the journal Museum Management and Curatorship, a Visiting Fellow at the School of Museum Studies at the University of Leicester (UK), and a Fellow of the Canadian Museums Association. He was the President and CEO of the Glenbow Museum (1989-2000) in Calgary, the founding Director of the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre (1976-1986), and the founding Executive Director of the Science Institute of the Northwest Territories (1986-1989), both in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada. He is also the founder of the Coalition of Museums for Climate Justice (2016).
Janes has a Ph.D. in Subarctic Archaeology and began his career in Canada’s remote Northwest Territories. He has worked with Canada’s Indigenous Peoples (First Nations and Inuit) throughout his career, which spans 48 years in and around museums as a director, consultant, author, editor, archaeologist, board member, teacher, volunteer, and philanthropist. Janes has devoted his career to championing museums as important social institutions that can make a difference in the lives of individuals and their communities. His research interests include museum management and organizational change, the social responsibilities of museums, museum activism, and the integration of Indigenous voices in museum practice, including repatriation. His museum publications have been translated into eleven languages.
Diana: Your career in the museum world has been extensive. You’ve authored numerous books and received a wide array of honors and awards, including being named the first honorary life member of the Canadian Museum Association and receiving an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Western University in Canada. What drives you in your work, and what is particularly close to your heart?
Robert: Well, you’re absolutely right, it’s been quite a journey. Let me start with a recent anecdote: I received an email from a Chinese graduate student. He began his message with, “Dear Dr. Janes, I realize that you are of an advanced age and…” It was a humbling reminder of the span of my career and the work I’ve done.
I began writing early. My first scholarly article was published as a graduate student, and my PhD thesis in archaeology won a writing prize and was later published as a hardcover book. These experiences motivated me to adopt a scholar-practitioner model in all my work. I believe that museum practice and museum scholarship are two sides of the same coin; each informs the other, and both are essential for competent museum work.
Throughout my career, I’ve been fortunate to have a range of lived experiences that underpin much of my writing. For example, I spent a significant amount of time among two of the world’s greatest hunting cultures: the Inuit of Canada’s Arctic and the Dene people of Canada’s western Subarctic. My wife and I lived in a large hunting camp near the Arctic Circle with the Dene. From them, I learned about the dynamics of small-group culture and values that became applicable to leadership and management in museums. These values include social ecology – recognizing the inextricable link between culture and environment – leadership based on competence and respect rather than hierarchy, self-organization, personal agency, and the meaning of generosity in a harsh environment.
These lessons inspired my interest in the social responsibilities of museums and their relationship with the more-than-human world. These themes underpin much of my writing and remain central to my work.
Diana: You also refer to these ideas in your latest book Museums and Societal Collapse.
Robert: Yes, the purpose of my latest book is to introduce the museum community to the threat of societal collapse. I aim to initiate a frank and constructive conversation about this uncertain future and the responsibilities that museums have in such a scenario. I believe museums, regardless of discipline, have a duty to help repair the rupture between nature and culture that is eroding our civilization. My book is essentially a call to my museum colleagues to step up and face up to the planetary catastrophe.
Diana: How do you define the value of museums for society?
Robert: Museums have historically valued independence, autonomy, and insularity. But in promoting these values, they’ve often overlooked the importance of interdependence, marginalizing themselves by appearing detached from societal affairs. It’s time to forge an ecology of museums that recognizes the web of societal relationships as the foundation of sustainability.
Neoliberal thinking, with its emphasis on the marketplace and individualism, has done great damage to our sense of community and collective well-being. Museums need to challenge this narrative and embrace their potential to foster collective values. So they must help to change the narrative that defines our lives and prioritizes economic growth at all costs, dismissing environmental destruction as merely regrettable, and justifying reckless behavior with the mindset of doing whatever we want, whenever we want.
Diana: Do you have examples of museums that support this narrative?
Robert: There are approximately 95,000 museums globally, but only a small minority, in my experience, are stepping up to address these issues. Many still cling to the notion of neutrality, avoiding involvement in what they perceive as political matters. However, maintaining the status quo is, in itself, a political act.
That’s why I continue to write, speak, advise, and mentor. While most museums haven’t yet embraced these societal and environmental challenges, I haven’t given up hope.
Diana: So you still have hope for change despite these challenges. What keeps you going?
Robert: My personal mantra is “hopeful, but not helpless.” The global situation often feels hopeless, but there’s so much that museums can do. I have a love-hate relationship with museums, but I truly believe they have immense potential.
When discussing the five stages of societal collapse – economic, commercial, political, cultural, and social – I’d say we’re already witnessing the early stages of economic and commercial collapse. It’s critical to avoid cultural and social collapse, where community values erode entirely. Museums can’t avert societal collapse on their own, but they can mitigate its effects, adapt, and assist with supporting the well-being of their communities.
Diana: What practical steps can museums take to respond to these challenges?
Robert: First, museums must be open to influence from outside. They need to listen to their communities, be responsive to citizen concerns, and remain transparent about their actions. Museums also need an advocacy policy focused on civic and moral issues that are of importance to their communities, and where museums can add meaning and value, not just securing more funding or recognition. They should prioritize community values and aspirations.
Second, museums must become reality-based. This means addressing pressing social and cultural issues rather than fixating on collections, exhibitions, audience development, or revenue from shops and dining spaces. They need to focus on relationships between people and foster external collaborations, which are the foundation of social capital.
Finally, museums must leverage the unprecedented public trust they enjoy. As a colleague recently said, this trust is like an uncashed check; it’s time to honor it with meaningful action. Museums are expressions of their communities, bearers of evidence and knowledge, and seed banks of sustainable practices. They bridge nature and culture, as well as the sciences and humanities. These qualities are unique and essential in addressing today’s challenges.
Diana: What are your thoughts on the state of culture in today’s world, particularly on the notion of culture and sustainability?
Robert: The state of culture and sustainability is deeply troubling worldwide. Culture isn’t just about arts or entertainment; it’s about how we live our lives, and currently, we’re failing. Mother Earth is showing us that our way of life is unsustainable, leading to societal and planetary collapse.
Sustainability efforts, including the UN SDGs, focus on green technologies like solar panels and electric vehicles but fail to challenge the underlying capitalist and neoliberal systems driving overconsumption and ecological overshoot. This disconnect, rooted in the false belief that humans are separate from nature, fuels crises like what I now call “climate trauma“ – a symptom of broader systemic issues.
These interconnected challenges are now referred to as a “polycrisis,” encompassing environmental destruction, political polarization, economic inequality, resource depletion, toxic pollution, and more. The planet cannot sustain us, as we’re consuming 1.75 planets’ worth of resources. Yet, museums, despite their wisdom and influence, largely continue with business as usual.
This is why I urge the global museum community to face these truths, speak out, and use their personal and collective agency to take action. Museums must go beyond preservation to actively support their communities and contribute to the well-being of the planet. The time for complacency is over.
Diana: You’ve spoken about the need for a new societal narrative. Can you break down the dominant narratives shaping our world today?
Robert: Right now, there are three major narratives that dominate.
The first is Business as Usual, the idea that consumption equals happiness, economic inequality is inevitable, and environmental destruction is regrettable but unavoidable. The reality is that modern industrial technological society (MTI) is falling apart, whether we admit it or not.
The second is the Green Technology Revolution, which suggests we can maintain our current way of life simply by adopting new technology – electric vehicles, solar panels, and wind turbines. But this is a myth. There are not enough global resources to sustain this model for everyone, so the Global South is being turned into a sacrifice zone, stripped of raw materials to support the consumption patterns of the Global North.
The third, and most troubling, is Accepting Collapse – letting society unravel while only the privileged few escape suffering. For many, this is already a reality, with climate disasters, wildfires, and food shortages impacting lives worldwide.
Diana: Given this grim outlook, what should policymakers and citizens be asking for?
Robert: The essential question they’re ignoring is: What should the authentic narrative of the 21st century be? Right now, the only concern is with economic growth. Politicians, policymakers, business leaders, and far too many citizens are not even aware that they should be asking this question. That’s where museums come in.
Diana: So you see museums playing a key role in shaping a new narrative. How?
Robert: Museums are uniquely positioned to challenge dominant myths and spark critical conversations. They aren’t just storytellers, they can shape the narratives that govern our lives. Cultural critic Neil Postman once said that a good museum must be “an argument with society.” Museums must embrace this role.
They can do this in several ways, by building social capital where museums can strengthen communities, promote trust, and foster social cohesion; by preserving diverse knowledge, as they hold Indigenous and traditional knowledge, offering perspectives beyond the dominant neoliberal framework; by synthesizing complex issues, as museums are spaces where diverse perspectives can be examined critically; by providing a deep sense of time, because unlike many institutions, museums connect the past, present, and future, encouraging long-term thinking. And finally, by inspiring wonder and curiosity, as they have the qualities, knowledge, and skills that can drive people to envision new possibilities.
Diana: But are museums ready for this challenge?
Robert: They have to be. They can’t afford to sit on the sidelines any longer. If they don’t step up, they risk becoming irrelevant – an unknown number of museums already are. The time for courage is now. Museums must take bold action—because if they don’t, who will?
Diana: Have you seen any museums already stepping up in this direction?
Robert: Yes, there are museums that recognize their broader responsibilities, but they’re still a minority. I could name a dozen doing meaningful work, but the overall movement is far from comprehensive.
What’s striking is that museums are the largest self-organized franchise in the world. There are about 95,000 museums globally – compare that to McDonald’s, the largest business franchise, with 42,000 locations. Yet, despite their scale and accessibility, museums lack the cohesion to drive systemic change.
Diana: So what’s stopping them?
Robert: That’s the big question. Imagine if even a third of those 95,000 museums took a stand – got organized, aligned their efforts, and actively engaged with the critical issues of our time. The impact would be immense. The potential is there. What’s missing is the collective will to act.
Diana: What about interdisciplinary collaboration—working beyond the museum sector?
Robert: Collaboration is key, but for museums to truly engage with other fields, they first have to admit their vulnerability. They need to acknowledge that they’re not the ultimate authority on everything; and that they don’t have all the answers. Instead of positioning themselves as experts, they must embrace learning, engage with communities, and build reciprocal relationships.
There’s an insightful book, Forces for Good, that studied 15 highly successful nonprofit organizations. The research found that their success wasn’t due to strategic planning, marketing, exhibitions, or programming—it was how much they interacted beyond their own institutions and how deeply they connected with their communities. This research confirms that outward engagement is critical.
Diana: How can we start shifting museums toward this mindset?
Robert: It needs to start in universities. Museum studies programs are still rooted in hierarchical, academic traditions that reinforce old habits. If we want museums to evolve, we have to rethink how museum professionals are trained. We need to instill the values of collaboration, adaptability, and community engagement from the very beginning.
Diana: And how is the current museum model preventing real progress?
Robert: The problem is that museums are distracted by the wrong priorities. The pressures they face today go far beyond money, audience numbers, and digital technology. We’re dealing with climate trauma, social injustice, decolonization, and Indigenous rights, to name just a few. Yet, instead of focusing on meaningful engagement, museums are caught up in chasing digital trends that don’t necessarily serve their mission.
I’m not saying that museums need to tackle every issue, but they do need to start a real conversation about what matters to them and their communities. Identify strategic priorities and take action. Digital tools can be useful, but only if they’re employed intelligently. For example, gamification could help shape a new cultural narrative. But museums need to be discerning, using technology as a tool rather than a distraction from the real work.
Diana: How should museum activism evolve to drive cultural impact in the future?
Robert: At its core, museum activism is about contributing to the well-being of communities by addressing inequalities, injustice, and environmental crises. This work has never been more urgent. However, many in the museum sector resist activism, dismissing it as too political. That’s a dangerous stance, as neutrality is a vote for the status quo—and the status quo is failing us.
Museum activism should be rooted in both personal and institutional agency. It’s not just about advocacy; it’s about challenging outdated assumptions, rethinking governance, and redefining ethical responsibilities. Museums have a unique position in society—they can question power, shape public discourse, and push for accountability from governments and corporations.
Diana: What we see so far is that some museums recognize their responsibilities, but struggle with internal barriers; leadership structures, workflow overload, and limited freedom to act. How can they break through?
Robert: Crisis often forces action, as we saw during COVID when museums rapidly responded to serve their communities. COVID was a wake-up call for many museums, as they had to confront their purpose and community role in new ways. Some did embrace these principles, but others have reverted to old habits.
But we can’t afford to wait for the next emergency. The key is embracing vulnerability, stepping outside rigid hierarchies, and actively engaging with communities. True activism means not just envisioning change, but doing the hard work to make it real.
Diana: So do museums need a crisis to drive real change until something forces action?
Robert: That’s a critical question. In my experience, a crisis can be a catalyst, but it can also be fatal. I’ve lived through it firsthand when I was the CEO of a museum with 160 employees and a budget of $15–18 million CAD per year. A month into the job, the board chair informed me that the provincial government had revoked its funding agreement, cutting 42% of our government funding within a year.
That would have killed the museum if we hadn’t completely restructured from the inside out. We had no choice but to rethink how we operated, how we engaged with the public, and what our real priorities were. That transformation became the basis for my book “Museums in the Paradox of Change”, which is now in its third edition.
But let’s be honest, not every museum can survive that level of disruption. Some would collapse under that pressure. And maybe that raises an uncomfortable question: Do we need to let some museums fail? Are we holding on to institutions that refuse to evolve? If a museum cannot justify its relevance to its community, should it exist at all?
The goal shouldn’t be to wait for a crisis but to act before one forces change upon us.
Diana: So if museums shouldn’t wait for a crisis to force change, what are the concrete steps they can take now?
Robert: It’s not rocket science. I have several suggestions that could address this issue.
First, transformation starts with honest conversations. Museum staff, boards, and leadership need to sit down and acknowledge the challenges head-on instead of pretending they don’t exist. And that takes courage. But frankly, I see a global leadership gap in museums. Too many senior leaders have 30 years of experience, but it’s the same year repeated 30 times – they’re not learning, adapting, or staying curious.
Second, museums need to rethink their vision, mission, and values. Too often, they’re focused on the what and how, but they rarely ask for whom or why. And every time you ask why, you uncover deeper questions about purpose, meaning, and values. Without clarity on that, how can a museum determine what change it’s trying to create, what solutions it’s offering, or what its non-negotiable values are?
Third, governance needs reform. Museums must build leadership that actually reflects their communities. Too many boards are stacked with people who have wealth and status, but not with those who truly represent the museum’s audience. Cultural background and lived experience should matter just as much as a CV or professional network.
Fourth, the outdated “lone CEO” model has to go. Museums are still clinging to this top-down leadership structure, which no single person can successfully navigate in today’s complex world. I’ve experimented with alternative models, like the Primus Inter Pares (first among equals) approach, where leadership is shared across a team. Museums need to test collective leadership models that empower staff rather than bottlenecking decision-making at the top. Rigid hierarchies are killing innovation and morale. Staff are frustrated, and it shows. Museums need to shift toward self-organization, delegating authority to smaller, more autonomous working groups that can make decisions at the most effective level. That’s how you create a more adaptive, engaged, and accountable institution.
I could go on, but the bottom line is: that museums need to stop clinging to outdated structures and start acting with intention.
At the same time, museums have succumbed to the dominance of the marketplace, often replacing their social values with economic ones. Many confuse business literacy (which is about methods and techniques that are clearly important) with actual values, leading them to make decisions that prioritize financial concerns over public service.
Diana: Are there any current trends where you see this playing out?
Robert: Yes, right now, museums are falling into digital magical thinking. They’re pouring resources into AI, NFTs, and digital collectibles, treating them as revolutionary solutions when, in reality, they can be dangerous and unproven distractions. These trends waste resources that could be better spent on real, community-driven change. Instead of blindly chasing the latest technology, museums need to recenter their missions and rethink their leadership models, among many other priorities.
Diana: Given your extensive experience—nearly five decades in and around museums, from leadership roles to writing and mentoring—what impact do you believe you’ve had on the field?
Robert: That’s a really difficult question. I know what I’d like to see, but measuring impact, especially at an institutional level, is elusive.
I’ve been a CEO, manager, writer, speaker, mentor, and advisor. I spent 19 years as an archaeologist, authored three books on archaeology and seven books on museums, and my writing has been translated into 11 languages. I’ve received many messages from individuals—letters, emails, and calls—people reaching out to say my work influenced them. I also have critics, which I welcome.
I would like to believe that I’ve had an impact— on individuals, their thinking, and their careers – although on a small and personal scale, I hope that I have helped to shape museum discourse and I do think that I have garnered some name recognition with my work, both in North America and internationally. But have I shifted museums as organizations? That’s impossible for me to say. Structural change in this field is slow, and museums tend to resist transformation.
It doesn’t matter to me that I don’t engage with social media or measure my reach in likes and shares. What matters is that the necessary conversations need to start, are starting, or are underway. Whether my impact is visible or not, I have done my best to push museums to rethink their roles in society and to honor their social responsibilities.
Diana: My very last question – what comes next for you?
Robert: I think we’re at a critical turning point in the evolution of museums. This is a rare watershed moment, a fork in the road where fundamental change is both an opportunity and a responsibility, but only if we recognize it.
Museums have evolved over time. They started as elite collections, became educational institutions, then transformed into public spaces. Now, I see too many museums functioning like malls, just another extension of consumer culture—focused on edutainment, spectacle, and consumption. They’ve lost their way.
But there’s a key lesson here; museums and museum workers have always adapted. The next iteration is pending, it just needs a definition. For me, the future of museums is clear; they should become institutions of the commons. They must belong to and serve the entire community as key civic resources, responding to people’s aspirations and concerns. Museums should be grounded in enhancing societal well-being, not just visitor numbers or revenue.
If I had a magic wand, I’d wish museums worldwide would start telling the truth; to themselves, their associations, governments, and their audiences. The truth is that our way of life is unsustainable, that climate and social crises are intensifying, and that museums have a role to play in helping society navigate this reality. Once museums embrace this imperative, they can start planning, collaborating, mitigating, and adapting.
We need to stop pretending and start asking real questions, as individuals, citizens, and museum, workers; Who am I? What do I want to be in this era of crisis? What am I here to do? What can I learn from others? What story shall I tell? What legacy shall I leave?
Despite everything, I believe there is so much to be grateful for. I believe people need meaningful work and a meaningful life. Museums must be in the world, not apart from it. We must figure out what we love, and we must defend and protect it.
That’s what I’d like to see happen – if I had that magic wand.
Diana: Thank you Robert for this conversation and for sharing your thoughts with me.
Robert R. Janes established these two awards to help promote socially responsible and activist museum work – Award for Social Responsibility and The Activist Museum Award.
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